| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 8:47:14 PM
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I got a letter on Friday stating that if I did not pay yearly dues to the Paces Point "Volunteer" Fire Department, that a lien would be placed on my property! First I thought the Fire Department was Volunteer! Second I have not received any information on the department prior to the notification letter!
What a way to drum up support. Does anyone know if there is a legal document that states you HAVE to pay yearly dues to this organization?
Does the organization have by laws and do they have independent audits of their finances as per the new federal laws? Sarbanes & Oxley?
What about insurance? I was in a Home Owners Association one time and I served as a board member. I resigned however after I found out that because I was in the Home Owner's Association that if anything happened in the area I could be sued as a member of the home owners association as well as be sued because I was a board member.
What happens if I pay my money and Paces' Point responds to a car accident and while removing the driver they paralize him. Since I am a member of the organization based on paying yearly dues I could be sued along with the Paces Point FD!
None of this was covered just a nasty letter with a bill. Send us money or else!
This is the reason I was in the military and fought against this type of action. This IS Taxation without representation! Until I am sure that I can't be held liable for the actions of the department should I give them money. Who is the department legal reps? Do they have liability insurance for the department and the members.
For anyone who blindly pays this bill you are opening yourself up to liability I think. With the growing area it is just a matter of time before someone sues because of an emergency action or non action.
Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where to go for the legal document that says I must pay this TAX, please post.
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| Name: |
Kizma Anuice
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 9:18:57 PM
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The whole thing sux, but I believe that it works like this. "volunteer" referrs to the firefighters not to the people who have houses.
Governing entities, ie counties, cities, etc set up fire districts. The establish in some cases dues for those living in the fire district and authorize the collection of such dues.
Knowing the local area, it is probably all screwed up, the authorites and the administrators are all "up the Boohia shooting pukekos."
Usually, however the guys who actually fight the fires are good guys. They don't get the money. It is used by the authority to build buildings and purchase equipment. Which is a good deal because most of the time the state, the feds and the locals match many times the amount collected.
Some lakes even have fire patrol boats that are acquired that way.
And usually the amount collect is chump change.
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| Name: |
Landlocked
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 9:21:13 PM
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How much was the bill?
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| Name: |
shirt
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 9:21:27 PM
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You are so right. Just thnk of the money that is sent in without knowing where it is going. I wrote them a letter about the same thing and asked for a copy of the expenditures and of course didn't get a reply. I also would be interested in the legality of putting a lein on your property as well as who set the dues price and when was it established. I have lived in that area since 2002 and it hasn't been brought up in that time frame. Someone is handling a huge amout of money without any oversight and there should be some accountability!!!
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| Name: |
shirt
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 9:34:45 PM
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I also forgot. The dues over in Union where I had my firsts place was 50 dollars and it was not mandatory. The dues in the Pace point area are 125 dollars for a house and an additional 25 for any vacant lots. Thats a lot of money when you consider the coverage area, all the way out 34.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Ever priced a fire truck?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 9:40:10 PM
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| Name: |
Landlocked
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| Subject: |
Ever priced a fire truck?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 9:49:36 PM
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Or watched your home burn to the ground?
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/9/2008 9:55:59 PM
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Paces Point has some very dedicated volunteers--and they need more. They do have the ability to place liens, which is a special category for volunteer FDs. Not sure what approvals they had to gain for that status, but I would imagine their books are squeaky clean and audited.
Questions, call 'em at 256-825-2511
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| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/9/2008 10:19:11 PM
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See above. I noticed that the Paces' Point letter they sent me says they are incorporated not a volunteer agency even though their website uses .org which should be used only for non-profit organizations.
I really do not have a problem with the organization as a whole but at least send me some information about the organization before sending a bill attached to a lien letter. I mean chances are I would have given more money if the first interaction had been positive.
This brings up another question. Does Alabama Power have to pay for each lot that does not have a house or dwelling? What about builders are they being sent lien letters for houses which are sitting empty?
If the organization is a LLC then they should provide any paying member with a quarterly statment of accounts receivables and payables, that is the law.
Froma post above such information was requested but never received. I work with audit trails in my job. I am also an ex military policeman.
Sarbanes & Oxley is the new law that requires outside, independant auditing of organizations. Look at Richard Scrushy to see if the government is not serious about organizations having over sight of their activities.
I guess my point is this. If I would have received a letter that covered the authority in which I could be charged 125.00 a year for fire service and then covered what my 125.00 would be used for and how often I would be provided information as to where my money was being spent or if I wanted to know how my money was being spent, the process in which I could see the open books then I would fine with that.
A letter saying, hey we are puting your property up for sale if you do not give us 125 bucks and a lien (which I was informed was the oldest trick in the book for Tallapoosa County and Alabama Lease lots) with nothing else sucks.
I have had one contractor try to play that game with me and I went and hired a very well known lawyer in Tallapoosa County to represent me. Funny thing is that when the lawyer sent a letter to the contractor the lien was removed almost over night.
I am going to contactmy lawyer tomorrow and see if they can do some prep work as to the legality of a (Volunteer organization) putting alien on a property for services that were neither agreed to or signed for.
I have already done some prep work and it appears that the paces Point FD has income of over 500,000.00 yearly!
Now is that money being audited and spent according to Standard Accounting Procedures and are the books being audited in accordance to State and Federal guidlines? Are people that are paying 125.00 a year getting access to financial records on a quarterly or yearly basis.
Who funds the Friday night singa alongs? Is my/our money being used for emergency services or to buy chips and sodas so that everyone can sit around and sing songs on Friday night?
I also think that it is weird to see another lot being cleared for Paces Point Fire Department number 2, not far from a very nice Volunteer Department right down the road! The appearance of the current building is a lot nicer than some city departments and to think they are going to build another new facility on the same road makes you go hmmmmmmmm!
I might pay my amount just to get access to all the records or get my lawyer to file for access to all files to include financial, insurance coverage to include that of members, equipment and baord members along with discovery notices for access to all incorporation records,past tax filings to include non-profit status and all department SOP's.
Needless to say they will earn my 125.00 if they decided to be stupid enough to file a lien. Thanks for all the support here.
I feel energized by the positve comments. Taxation without representation is why in the 1700's our fore fathers dumped bales of tea into the Boston Harbor because England imposed a tea tax that was not fair!
If anyone wants to joinme please let me know.
Plus I pay insuance on my home so do not give me the " 125 bucks is cheap if your house burns to the ground BS" At least I know what my insurance money goes for each month.
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| Name: |
jdlake
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 10:29:26 PM
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Pace's Point Volunteer Fire District and StillWaters Volunteer Fire District are true fire districts that were established under AL State Law (they are the only two in Tallapoosa County). That means that a number of years ago they both held public referendums for all property owners in each defined district to (1) Establish as a legal Fire District and (2) Set a rate for the annual fire assessment. Over the years, they have each held additional referendums to adjust the assessment fees for the many cost of living increases. The property owners in these Districts had total control over these decisions through their voting power. Under State Law, failure of property owners to pay the fire assessment is handled much in the same manner as failure to pay property taxes (liens, auctions, etc.). Each District has their own set guidelines (bylaws, articles of incorporation, etc.) to handle non-payment of assessments, and their own approach for collections. This income simply keeps them functioning and able to provide quality fire protection and rescue services to their respective Districts. It also helps to pay the many liability costs associated with doing business (liability insurance, workers comp, vehicle and building insurance, etc.). The other volunteer fire departments in Tallapoosa County survive solely from the generous donations of the people that live in their protection area. However, many of them suffer do to a lack of established, bugeted income. Tallapoosa County does not subsidize the VFD's through special taxes like many counties in AL do, so the VFD's are left to fend for themselves. I hope that this info sheds some light on your situation, and I encourage you to call or stop by the VFD to talk with them directly.
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| Name: |
boataholic
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/9/2008 10:30:24 PM
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Union VFD sends a letter and lets you know that if you choose not to pay the 50.00, then if they respond to a fire they will send you the bill. My home VFD (Redland) makes no threats nor implies them. I would not be surprised if VFDs have lien authority after a fire if you don't pay, but I doubt they can do squat to make you pay up front.
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 10:31:08 PM
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Back in 2000-2001 we had a guy come by 'collecting for the fire dept.'. The first time we gave him the $25 he asked for. Just a few months later he was back again. This time I was not home and had the checkbook with me. My wife only had $10 cash and offered it to him. He got real indignant with her, litterally demanding more money. She promptly told him to leave and threatened him if he ever showed up again. Two weeks later Chris the manager of the J'gap WAter came by seeking donations. When I related the experience to him he was very apologetic but never offered a 'refund' and denied ever recieving any money from the other guy. Since then I am not aware of them doing ANY door to door collections. Bottom line is, I bought some crack head his dope a couple of times.
I have been an advocate for county wide PAID fire dept. since moving here. I even suggested last year that the HOBO's should take up that cause. Anyone who can even see year round water should set up 'dry hydrants'. This will lower your insurance rates somewhat and may actually save your house. Depeneding on the geography, several neighbors could even share the cost and beneifit. The cost is neglegible since all you need is 6" PVC with a foot valve and coupling compatible with the hoses used by the fire departments.
As for Paces Point, that is a VERY expensive sign they have!! It took a LOT of $125 checks to buy that.
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| Name: |
boataholic
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 10:34:37 PM
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Interesting. Is the insurance rating extremely good for the Paces area so that the cost is justified?
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| Name: |
jdlake
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/9/2008 10:38:25 PM
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Pace's Point VFD has a below average ISO Rating and is currently working to be re-evaluated to lower their rating further. However, you must realize that there are many factors (water supply, 911 system,etc.) that have a huge impact on ISO Rating that are out of the control of the VFD.
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| Name: |
rude evin
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| Subject: |
Bamaonthelake........
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Date:
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3/9/2008 11:25:40 PM
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I think one of your other questions early on related to the liability you might incur by being a dues paying member of a VFD.........don't know the legal issue there ,but, imho if you have a place on the lake and a boat and do not have an extra umbrella liability coverage policy that would also protect you in other areas, you are playing with fire....no pun intended. And I do not, have not and will not ever sell insurance.
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| Name: |
Hawks Nest
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/9/2008 11:36:45 PM
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Incorporated has nothing to do with ".org" Not-for-profit entities can be incorporated.
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| Name: |
Hawks Nest
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/9/2008 11:46:15 PM
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and if you choose not to pay, be sure to notify your insurance company that you have no fire protection.
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| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
Bamaonthelake........
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Date:
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3/9/2008 11:51:58 PM
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Nope I am not worried about my homeowners insurance, what I am worried about is the fact that if I am required to pay 125.00 each year to fund a fire department, regardless if I want to our not, and they are incorporated, then I am in essence a member of their organization by default.
If I am part of their organization based on my year "contributions" then what happens when some 18 year old kid totals his car heading out to Pleasure Point and the Pace's Point Fire Department responds. In pulling the kid out he becomes paralyzed.
The kid and his parents sue Pace's Point and list its officers and all the "members" in the litigation because we are all in essence part of the incorporation.
I have seen it happen to home owners associations. Someone gets hurt in a neighborhood and then the litigation begins. The last home owners association actually purchased liability insurance for the organization and the officers of the home owners association just in case of an emergency.
I think all would agree here we live in a litigation society. Police Departments, City governments and Fire Departments around the country are always being sued by citizens because of negligence and abuse.
My question is that if I have no choice in the matter then at least the organization that is not giving me a choice should provide me with this type of information prior to me actually paying money.
Mark my words at some point out here on Paces Point, the Fire Department will respond to an emergency situation that will have either loss of life, property and or both. At that time the lawyers will be involved along with the insurance companies and just as always they will look to see what assets, money or property are available.
If you do not think a lawyer would think twice about listing all Pace's Point FD Officers and people that contributed money as defendants you are crazy.
I should have known Life Time Laker would chime in on this subject. he brings up good points. I would rather have the local governments take charge and tax me and take the liability than to have an incorporated "volunteer" program that opens us all up to liability.
More to follow on this one. I have some folks lined up. I want to se the legal documentation for myself. If It checks out then I will pay but I also think the books should be open and that the proper liability be placed not on the poor people who pay but to the board and the incorporation.
Mark it in stone here though. I have been a part of one too many litigation cases in my past and this one is ripe for the picking. it will happen as soon as some poor paying member's house goes up in flames and there is a poor or no response time or someone is injured by a negligent emergency personnel actions. Remember you heard it here first!
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Had a neighbor........
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Date:
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3/10/2008 9:19:12 AM
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one time, spent a fortune on lawyers and suing to prove he was right. Man lived a miserable life and never won anything.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Bamaonthelake........
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Date:
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3/10/2008 10:18:40 AM
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Somewhere in this thread you posted that Paces Point revenue was $500,000 last year. According to our records there are approximately 1,250 homes in their fire coverage area. 1,250 X $125 = $156,250.
Their income from dues is about 30% of your statement.
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| Name: |
BigFoot
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/10/2008 11:01:46 AM
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I agree with you completely, osms. Paces Point VFD is probably one of the best in the country....very dedicated people! They are also the first ones to show up (from personal experience) when you have an emergency and dial 911. In my case, seemed like no more than 4-5 minutes, there were 3 vehicles of responders from PPVFD at my door well ahead of the ambulance which had to drive 16 miles.
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 11:04:39 AM
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The sign board in front of the building probably cost at least 20% of that amount.
Good stewards of the money????
I have no dog in this fight, but I know what signs cost and it is ludicrous that they exist by seizing money from homeowners, yet spend it frivolously. And YES that sign is frivolous. A lot of USEFULL equipment could have been bought for the cost of that sign!!
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| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 11:37:35 AM
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Well I am not sure about the sign but I will tell you that when I ride by the FD it is a lot nocer than some cities that I travel through.
I also saw where someone wrote about the finances. You can't just figure in dues from citizens, you also have to factor in any matching money from the state or federal money along with dontaions as well.
My question is why should I be told I have to pay 125.00 for 2008 and it is due now. I would think that my cost should be broken down monthly.
You woul dnot pay a contractor until he finished the job on your place. I plan on paying my bill monthly. Each month I should receive a statement from the FD that shows my balance and if I am paying for a service I should pay as I go.
I am not billed ahead for my cellular service, cable service or water? Why should I be billed ahead of time for fires service?
I also think that it is interesting that they are building ANOTHER fire station just five miles down the same road! Anyone else think this is weird of course if they have that kind of money then they must be getting it from somewhere.
I am still waiting to receive the document that shows I must pay or else. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
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| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/10/2008 11:41:03 AM
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Hey O,
I have tried to call repeatedly the number you gave me with no answer. Good thing my house is not on fire!
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 11:47:20 AM
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256-825-2511
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| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 12:12:14 PM
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I have called that number several times today with no answer. Good thing my house is not burning down!
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| Name: |
8hcap
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 12:38:25 PM
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I have no dog in this hunt - I do make donations to the Kowaliga VFD - i do not think they are a fire district under the state law.
But, here in Shelby County we had a fire district and yes they can lien your house if you do not pay. But even worse, when we were annexed into Hoover and therefore paying Hoover taxes which include fire protection, we still had to pay teh fire dues. Hoover has a fire station closer to my house than the VFD. This caused quite an uproar, a lawsuit and various other thisngs. The lawsuit was thrown out which meant the VFD could continue to collect dues. But then they offered us a really good deal - they would allow us to buy out of the district for a prepayment of 6 years dues. Not!!! I did it because I saw first hand the greed and incompetance of the board and managementand wanted no part of the organization.
8
8
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| Name: |
Lakeman
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 12:43:18 PM
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You would not call that number if your house is on fire anyway. 911? Someone did not just come along and put up a VFD and then start to charge people. It had to come from concerned citizens that saw the need to protect their homes and property. The Union VF&R is constantly having community gatherings and meetings to keep citizens informed of their investment. The thing to do if you have a concern is to go to the meetings and let your concerns be known.
I know the $75 we pay is well worth it. I have had the opportunity to have them show as first responders and as was stated earlier it was only 4-5 minutes from the time I dialed " 911 ". I don't know what the law is about liens but I have not had to worry about that because I gladly pay my yearly dues at one time and not by the month.
They also let me know that if I choose not to join and they respond to a fire or rescue call at my residence it is going to cost me a service fee and I will have to pay it.
Did you recieve service and refuse to pay the fee? It sounds like something is going on.
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| Name: |
boataholic
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| Subject: |
Nazi's on Paces Point?
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Date:
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3/10/2008 12:56:11 PM
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Since these fire districts are little quasi-governments, who determines who runs them? Do they hold elections for the board of directors? Appointed by the County?
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| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 1:41:35 PM
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Nope I have never received service or called them. I have received some information on how and why they can charge a fee however from someone in the know about such things.
Let me state this upfront, this is not an attempt to slam anyone who volunteers ar fights fires. My poin in startting this thread was that the first interaction I have had with Pace's Point was a latter saying that I MUST pay and IF I DID NOT then I would have a lien placed on my property.
I received some information from the Still Waters FD that gave me the facts. They quoted the state law that was passed, they gave me an example that they and the Pace's Point FD were the only 2 FD's in Tallapoosa County that were approved my a vote before I moved to Pace's Point where the citizens approved the measure.
My point is that if I had been visited my a member of the department or I had received a letter, much like I did in this forum which explained the law, the reason I could be charged and the history, then I would have been fine with it or at least I would have understood where they were coming from.
Kudos to the Fire Chief of Still Waters for providing the information to me in such a professional manner. The Pace's Point Fire Department should learn by your example and have a professionally written letter outlying those facts to taxed members instead of sending threatening letters.
Bottom line is that I will pay the tax but that is all. Any donation money I have will go to Still Waters because in my book they have handled themselves in a more professional manner.
I also plan on getting copies of all Pace's Points SOP's, By laws and audit records and if anyone wants to help me audit them you are welcome to do so.
I understand they have obtained a lot of federal funds and state funds but still continue to charge more annually than Still Waters! Makes you wonder where all that money is going.
Sing-a-long anyone?
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/10/2008 4:28:53 PM
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Leave a message--they don't have full time staff.
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| Name: |
djmed
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 5:20:55 PM
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some friends were renting a place that burned down in the fall. the union guys were asking for money and suggesting claiming it on the insurance before the flames were even put out.
my friend was just amazed. the fireman even called him at work after he told him he just rented the place.
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| Name: |
Hawks Nest
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 5:21:11 PM
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Believe they received a grant specifically for the sign. I'm happy to have them so close. Would gladly pay $250 if they asked for it (and don't wish for membership, except maybe wish I had time to volunteer to help them). Ever looked at the sign to see how many calls they respond to? I'm sure there are 50-60 families per year that appreciate their services. THANK YOU volunteers.
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| Name: |
Hawks Nest
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 5:21:12 PM
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Believe they received a grant specifically for the sign. I'm happy to have them so close. Would gladly pay $250 if they asked for it (and don't wish for membership, except maybe wish I had time to volunteer to help them). Ever looked at the sign to see how many calls they respond to? I'm sure there are 50-60 families per year that appreciate their services. THANK YOU volunteers.
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 5:43:12 PM
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AS of last Friday I saw 11 911 calls on the board. But to even pursue a grant for that type of sign shows an arogance that is unbelievable. Why not use those resources to pursue a grant for new equipment. Plus the fact that grants ore even available for such lavish SIGNS for VFD shows that politicians have NO REGARD for the taxpayers. A sign like that costs 10's of thousands of dollars. They are NOT CHEAP!! Call a sign company and price one. You may be surprised. That coupled with the Taj Mahal of VFD buildings and another on the way shows poor stewardship of the funds they recieve IMHO.
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| Name: |
boataholic
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 5:56:10 PM
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A good example of why you don't create a governmental body without a lot of limits on their power and money. Over time they lose they can lose their way. People need to remember that when planning to create a zoning commission.
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| Name: |
Hawks Nest
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 6:13:01 PM
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While I haven't seen "the books" I've also not heard of any "poor stewardship." I gave a donation to help with the sign because I liked the idea. As sick as it is, my family makes non-monetary bets on the number of calls posted each time we go to the lake. It's fun. I like the communication as to when not to burn. I know this doesn't justify a big price tag, but do know where all the money came from to buy it? Could it be that there were also many donors like myself? I'm sure others gave as well. I'm looking forward to a new fire station on the new lot as it'll be two miles closer to my shack. Come on....why all the negativism for volunteers? Or maybe they are not volunteers per a previous post. Will they not share their financial information?
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 6:40:54 PM
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To even WANT a sign like that shows that somebody has really screwed up priorities. And why donate to such a cause? I would bet they could have bought a complete 'turnout' suit with thermal imaging for what that sign cost.
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 7:02:19 PM
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What is an IMHO?
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| Name: |
Hawks Nest
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 7:53:08 PM
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Well I pray my priorities are in line. I will donate for a suit when asked. Perhaps they have the suit. I believe they have the googles.
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| Name: |
ppointman
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 8:43:18 PM
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I'm with you Bama. They held an election several years ago but it's not true that everyone had the right to vote. A big number of the 1250 houses are owned by people not local, the property may have changed hands since the vote, or the owners are from out of state. So no, everyone didn't get to vote on this. I've had a place a Paces Point for over 20 years, didn't like being forced to join the "club" but have paid the dues every year since. Acceptable in the beginning but it is beginning to look like an empire is being built. Agree it's time for an audit.
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| Name: |
Bamaonthelake
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| Subject: |
One Side My Side
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Date:
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3/10/2008 10:13:45 PM
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In my humble opinion
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| Name: |
rude evin
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| Subject: |
LTL............
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Date:
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3/10/2008 10:41:18 PM
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You're losing your touch.........the stirring ain't workin'..........
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
LTL............
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Date:
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3/11/2008 1:04:48 AM
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Yea, I am getting old and tired and my protege (NautiMInded) has NOT been helping out at all. I guess she has been to busy with the photo shoot for the pic posted over at CAT's site.
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| Name: |
Dolemite
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| Subject: |
Makes $125 seem cheap..
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Date:
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3/12/2008 5:42:14 PM
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I'm with you Bama. At least I know where my insurance money is going and what I get in return. The dues for my VFD are a fixed rate but they are optional. Supposedly they will send me a bill on the cost of putting out the fire if my dues aren't up to date.
My VFD has the worst possible rating per my insurance company; drove my rates up 40% last year. They came wanting the dues; my response was that I already paid my dues to the insurance company (times 20) I'm coming out better if it burns to the ground.
It would probably be cinders by the time they got there anyway judging them by the rating they were given. It's funny, they got a new fire truck (homeland security money) and the next year the rating fell from the next to worst to the worst.
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