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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Good news.....can't find the oil in the Gulf
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Date:
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7/27/2010 12:42:33 PM
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As I reported earlier the over 700 ships looking to skim oil in the Gulf were having problems finding oil to skim. After two to three weeks of this good news the government media is finally reporting it, albeit slowly. Amazing how resilient the environment is and supports my early optimism about the long-term impact of the spill. For you naysayers and doomseekers about the long-term impact of the oil spill all I can say is I told you so. That is what happens when folks don't look to history as a guide to the future. While this spill was the largest in the Gulf so far the other large spills were not even cleaned up but were allowed to naturally attenuate.
Sadly I may have missed my opportunity to purchase some inexpensive ocean front real estate in the Gulf.........then again maybe not. Maybe the sellers get their news from the government media.
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Good news.....can't find the oil in the Gulf
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Date:
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7/27/2010 3:53:18 PM (updated 7/27/2010 4:06:44 PM)
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I wish I could be as optimistic as you are MM. The part of the gulf I have seen has received what I would call minor impact from the oil spill, and yet the results are not good. These areas have received nothing compared to what the marshes have experienced. The water is contaminated, and I am not an expert enough to know how long it takes to get oil out of the water. I do not know how long the natural process will take. I have seen videos of various samples of water being tested and the results were not good. Were they just trying to pull the wool over my eyes? Maybe so, but when I picked up a quarter size tar ball, that was among a whole area of tar being washed up, I could not get it off my hands until I got to some cleaning material.
My information may be wrong, you probably have access to much better, but I understand that the dispersant sent much of the oil to the bottom. A great PR move but at what costs to sea life? I am no tree hugger, save the turtles environmentalist. I am ok seeing the oil / natural gas rigs in the gulf; I am also ok with every precaution to be taken to avoid disaster.
What does it look like in Mississippi? Louisiana marshes? At the bottom of the gulf? I do not know. But here are some pictures from my little section:
Each night the machines come through to "remove" the oil. All these little black dots are pea sized tar balls that are left on what used to be pristine beaches:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/lakngulf/BP%20Oil%20Spill/bp100725002.jpg
Sea weed continues to wash up, from the bottom of the gulf. This we can deal with, and have forever. Look closely and you will also see some sizeable tar balls that have washed up with it. How much is out there?
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/lakngulf/BP%20Oil%20Spill/bp100725005.jpg
The folks who still try to enjoy the beach, and there are many, cannot avoid the oil and tar. It is in the water, on the sand, under the sand. It is tracked onto the boardwalks, into the hallways, and into the condos. I stopped some folks in UTV's who had EPA on their shirts. I mentioned to them the thousands of small tar balls left by the machines, and the oil in the sea weed. They said they were still in mass removal frame of mind, and it would be a while before they got to the smaller stuff.
So, no oil? no tar? Not quite.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Good news.....can't find the oil in the Gulf
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Date:
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7/27/2010 4:37:29 PM
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The dispersant doesn't make the oil sink. It breaks it up into smaller globules that are easier to naturally degrade (i.e., greater surface area and greater exposure to physical, chemical and biological weathering). Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying there aren't going to be short term impacts from the spill. There has been and there will for some time. I am really focused on the long-term impact (3 to 5 years and beyond) and the fact that such a short time after the spill they are having difficulty finding oil to skim bodes very well for the long term.
I put this somewhat in the same category as the drought and low lake levels of several years ago (partly a man-made problem because of mismanagement by the USACOE, APC and others). As it was in full bloom there were all sorts of dire predictions, demands for action, etc. Many of which were ultimately not necessary as we returned to more normal precipitation patterns. Some of which were implemented and some are under consideration.
But at the end of the day the long-term impact of the spill will be negligible because of the cleanup operations and the immense ability of the Gulf to absorb and naturally degrade the oil. But there is no denying the fact that right now it is having an impact and you will see some effects for years to come and that is a very bad thing for those impacted. Will those longer term effects destroy the use and enjoyment of the Gulf of Mexico? I firmly believe they will not and time will tell. Just take heart in the news of the day and look forward to more improvement over time.
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Good news.....can't find the oil in the Gulf
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Date:
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7/27/2010 5:14:46 PM (updated 7/27/2010 5:25:39 PM)
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I appreciate your knowledge of the effects, and my lack of knowledge; I just go by what I see, and what I know is being pushed under the sand at the gulf.....but my having to push my floating dock out farther to enjoy beautiful Lake Martin due to a drought is NOTHING compared to the oil blasting out into the gulf, and destroying fishing sites, breeding grounds, marshes, beaches. I know you are just saying that you put "reaction" in the same category, but I cannot go there.
5-7 years to lose a livelihood, breeding grounds, oysters, shrimp, pristine beaches, rental income, dining and entertainment income is not minor.
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
Amen, Brother LNG>>
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Date:
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7/27/2010 6:36:10 PM
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My son just got back from Orange Beach last week. Beaches almost deserted. Restaurants saying Anywhere You Want to Sit?? July at Gulf Shores?? Many, many vacationers cancelled. The water around the Perdido Pass with a rainbow sheen at times from oil. And nobody was digging sand castles either.
Just seems like they are under the gun, starting with back to back hurricanes several years ago, then real estate crash, now oily water and beaches.
And, inedible seafood for 2-4-5?? years. For businesses that have to make their nut from April til September, they are hurting, and will be for some time to come. Repeat vacationers are gonna' start looking elsewhere. Not minor.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
Good news.....can't find the oil in the Gulf
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Date:
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7/27/2010 11:57:29 PM
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Do you have any investments tied to BP?
Anyone saying there was minimal damage to this disaster is not quite as bad as saying there was no Halocaust. I would hate to think anyone could believe either. Just my opinion.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Not amen brother
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Date:
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7/28/2010 8:46:07 AM
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I am not nor did I ever say that these are comparable problems. They are clearly not. My point in bringing up the lake levels was only about the dire predictions, wailing and gnashing of teeth that proved to be misplaced from a long-term perspective. I am saying that the same is true of the Gulf spill. Do some research about the other large spill in the Gulf in Mexico. That blowout went on from June 1979 to March 1980 (almost 9 months) before it was contained. And there was no effort to clean it up so every one of the 480,000 tons of oil that was released stayed in the environment. I don't know about you but the resorts along the Gulf in Mexico seem to be doing OK and I have been going to the Gulf since 1984 and never noticed a problem. Also talk to the tens of thousands of people that visit Prince William Sound each year. Ask them if the Exxon Valdez spill ruined their vacation.
I will repeat what I stated earlier so there is no misunderstanding. I acknowledge the problems created by the spill to the fishing industry, tourism, the oil industry and anyone else that is affected. If you want I will shout it from the top of the tallest building in Dadeville. It is a tragedy, it is awful, it is the worst thing that has ever happened in all of mankind.
But take heart, I believe the long-term effects will be negligible and if I am wrong then in three to five years I will go back to that tall building and shout my apologies to all the world. I don't understand why this point about the long-term impact is getting wrapped up into what is happening 3 to 4 months after the spill and a week or two after they successfully capped the well. I am not talking about today or tomorrow or next month or maybe even next year. I am talking about the next 3 to 5 years......
And by the way, they are already talking about opening up some of the areas for fishing and shrimping. Let's hope for the sake of those businesses that conditions will allow that to happen. See the url below for some information about the short and long-term effects. It is a decent summary and Robert Stewart is very knowledgeable on the subject.
URL: http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oceanography-book/oilspills.htm
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Not amen brother
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Date:
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7/28/2010 9:06:37 AM
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Well said.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Ah the claims of being in the pocket of Big Oil
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Date:
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7/28/2010 9:14:03 AM
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Who said there was minimal damage? I defy you to find anywhere in any of my posts where I said there was minimal damage.
Re-read what I wrote and you will see that I pointed out that the long-term impact of the spill will be negligible. I actually am very knowledgeable of the history of oil spills and the short and long-term impact of petroleum products in the environment. Its what I do for a living. You can choose to ignore me and stay mired in ignorance if it makes you feel better in your righteous indignation.
As for your intellectually dishonest jab about owning BP stock the answer is probably yes, in my mutual funds and and I would be willing to be that you do as well. In the interest of full disclosure, and I have stated this previously, I worked for Sohio Petroleum from 1984 to 1986. When Sohio was bought out by BP they closed our division and I was laid off. My environmental companies do not work for BP and have never worked for BP. We work for one of the other parties in the Gulf that are adverse to BP and they are not responsible for the cleanup operations.
I have no love for BP and my only reason I hope they survive so they can pay for the cleanup and reimburse those impacted by the spill. There must be something in the water at your lake house. I would have it tested.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Different story at Orange Beach
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Date:
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7/28/2010 9:35:22 AM
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I just got off the phone with a client and she is headed to Orange Beach and her sister was there last week and it was fabulous. Never saw any oil in the water or on the beach and people were swimming, despite the double red flags. Apparently at Gulf Shores they are arresting people for swimming in the ocean so its no surprise the place is deserted. Amazing how the impact is geographically different. When we were out sampling we saw strings of oil separated by large unimpacted areas. Could be that is why it impacts different areas differently.
Just an FYI, by the time the oil reaches the surface at the spill site it is significantly weathered and most of the chemical toxicity is gone. After a few days in the warm gulf water and exposed to the sun it is significantly further weathered and the chemical toxicity is mostly if not completely gone. What remains is this highly viscous medium and long-chain hydrocarbons (think cooking oil) that is more resistant to weathering and represents physical toxicity to biota (which means it gets in their gills or their feathers and they die from that).
No doubt there will be short term impacts and people are suffering. But as I said to the others, take heart as the long-term impact will be negligible. I assume everyone wants that to be the case and are not hoping for long-term damage just so they can hold onto their anger at BP, right?
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Different story at Orange Beach
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Date:
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7/28/2010 10:02:35 AM
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MM, if your job was lost for 3, 4 or 5 years, would that be negligible? Many of these folks are day to day, week to week. Many have clients who will go elsewhere. 3, 4 5 years is not minor.
I fully agree that in the long term the gulf will survive, but BP has a lot of taking care to do til then. I feel for those folks. What I have lost is indeed minimal. I will survive, I will enjoy the beach, I will enjoy the seafood. Opening up fishing areas will be great. Is it contaminated? You probably have the expertise to know, I do not, but I know what the oil looked like on my hands when I picked some up. What I picked up was a drop in the proverbial bucket.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Different story at Orange Beach
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Date:
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7/28/2010 10:30:29 AM
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People lose their jobs all the time and in industries that never come back. I spent six years in school preparing to work in the oil industry. The Arabs flooded the market with oil, prices dropped and oil companies dumped people (including me) and didn't hire for years afterward. I was able to land on my feet but I spent two years being underemployed and then eventually took a job in the environmental field making half what I made in the oil industry. I am the only one in my family that went to college and I have seen my brothers struggle, lose jobs, have to move, etc. I understand the suffering that is caused by something like this but I also understand that the only thing unique about it is the cause.
Because of the high taxes, high labor costs and regulatory burden in this country whole industries have left for more hospitable countries (textiles being one prime example). I'm not defending their decision to do so, just stating a historical fact. What is different from all those massive changes is there was no BP to compensate them for their lost jobs. There was no $20B fund to compensate those impacted by the loss. They got their severance and were sent packing, if they got any at all. We need to hope and pray that BP survives and returns to profitability, otherwise those impacted will be royally screwed because I can assure you they won't get squat from the government except unemployment benefits. But I wonder if people are equally outraged at the 145,000 high paying jobs lost when Obama issued his illegal off-shore drilling moratorium?
I really am struggling with the inability to understand that I am acknowledging that this is painful and a tragedy but I have this sense of optimism about the future. I know we all have our own temperament but I was told once by someone that optimists live longer and are happier people. I choose to be optimistic about the long term impact the of spill and no one can change my mind. But I am not oblivious to the plight of those impacted in the short run.
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Different story at Orange Beach
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Date:
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7/28/2010 10:56:17 AM (updated 7/28/2010 11:14:00 AM)
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But I am not oblivious to the plight of those impacted in the short run
Good, we only now disagree on what is "the short run". Otherwise, I have much agreement with what you say. I see the lay of the land differently down there, but the overall I agree with. Lost my job as well, now make much less, they kicked me to save money, then hired more to do the same. I asked one of the partners recently if he had a spreadsheet showing the money they had saved. He laughed and said the spreadsheet would not show that.
If industries go under, or are mis-managed, or policies create hostile manufacturing environments, or crooks in DC steal jobs and money, and people lose their jobs, I feel for them but realize that happens. Those who own the world can determine when to shut down a business. Hopefully folks have skills, and can find other jobs. When a natural disaster hits (Ivan, Katrina, earthquake, tornado, etc) people lose jobs.
As you say, the difference here is the "cause". We have a culprit, or culprits who should "make right" for a long while. Will there be folks to take advantage, there always are, but the vetting process should be severe enough to handle.
Over and Out.
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
Hey MM
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Date:
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7/28/2010 1:19:26 PM
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I love ya man!!!
ROFLMAO
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
The Water is Fine Here
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Date:
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7/28/2010 3:31:10 PM
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You need to re-read my post. I did ask you a question. Thank you for your answer.
I stated nothing further in you direction unless you might be guilty of what I stated.
I think my post assisted you in clarifying your position; therefore you do believe there is more than minimal damage done to the environment, economy and people's lives.
I do disagree with you on one issue. I do think there will be long term issues causing harm to nature and the Gulf environment. Just my opinion once again~
You seem to think otherwise, and you are entitled to your personal opinion.
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
Yeah, it's you not the water
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Date:
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7/28/2010 4:15:22 PM
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MM has the education and experience to state a VALID opinion. Your's is based on nothing more than knee jerk reaction to an 'manufactured crisis'. Yes, I said manufactured. The messiah needed this to continue so he could gin up support for the fradulent cap and tax scheme he is pushing. Why else turn down all the international help in the very early stages?
Why don't you go down there and redistribute some of your wealth?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The Water is Fine Here
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Date:
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7/28/2010 4:16:02 PM
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I suppose I took the opening line to impugn what I was saying as a BP lackey and maybe was a little too defensive. This is the same canard the left uses with anyone that is skeptical of global warming, or as I call it, globaloney. I think you can surmise which camp I am in along with the rest of the Holocaust deniers and Baghdad Bob from the Gulf War fame.
I think if you go back and read all my posts I have never denied the short-term impact of this disaster. Only a blind fool, and possibly Baghdad Bob would think otherwise. As for your personal opinion I can understand it but my opinion is based on spending the last 20 years in the environmental business dealing with petroleum spills and doing a lot of research on them for clients. I believe, based on my experience that the long-term impacts will be minor and there is tons of evidence to support that belief. Not zero, but not significant. And others may disagree with my definition of long-term and short-term. I am willing to bet though that by next summer people will once again be flocking the Gulf of Mexico beaches unless the government media decides they need to keep the negative coverage up to help the Messiah.
As for your water being fine I am also glad to hear that. As you know, your spouse and I are frequent sparring partners on the Forum and one adversary in your house is enough for me. Maybe my water is the problem?!?!?......Naahh.... I really do hope BP can right their ship and have the financial resources to pay for the damage that has been caused. It does no good to demonize them in a way that will force them into financial ruin as much as an eye for an eye would feel satisfying. That would fall into the category of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Also, BP has more US citizen employees than British. That's just more lost jobs. And as you can imagine from my post above, I have no love for BP.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
The Water is Fine Here
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Date:
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7/28/2010 4:36:42 PM
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Often with an open and non-adversarial (not sure of the spelling or if it is even a word) dialog, you find you have more in common with one another than expected.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The Water is Fine Here
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Date:
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7/28/2010 4:53:12 PM
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Oh I know we have a lot more in common than our back and forth would suggest. My goal in life is to get her to admit she made a mistake voting for Obama. I am not optimistic even if she comes to believe it in her heart she will never admit it to me......even if I promise not to say I told you so. And it would be really hard for me not to say it.....maybe impossible......
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
Don't Shovel the Crap in ths Direction
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Date:
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7/28/2010 6:09:01 PM
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The problem is - The Republican Party did not have a viable candidate. Then they proceeded to shoot themself in the foot by putting Palin is as the VP candidate.
I have tremendous respect from Senator McCain as a dedicated servant to his beloved country. I do not believe he would of made a good President.
Ms. Palin would have trouble graduating from a respectable college in a course of instruction in any field of significant value. This meaning of significant value to a major leader of this Country of ours. It scared the heck out of me to think the Republican Party would of won and she might end of as President if anything happened to McCain.
I am a Republican, and I hope they can find better candidates in the next election.
I further doubt Ms. Palin could compare to Hound's shooting skills on a range or in the field. I have retrieved a few ducks dropped by the Hound.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I'll take my crap over yours
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Date:
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7/28/2010 10:05:23 PM
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If you also voted for Obama/Biden because of Palin I can only pity you. You certainly showed the GOP. You don't like McCain's choice for VP so you vote for a socialist community agitator and a moron. That is close to the dumbest thing a person could possibly do and one I would never admit to in decent company. Granted McCain/Palin were not my first choice but at least I didn't throw a fit like a 4 year old and vote for the greater of two evils just to make a statement. As I said, maybe you and Hound will actually be the last two non left wing nuts to admit your mistake....then again maybe you never will.
As for your childish insults of Sarah Palin, I doubt she could give a hoot what you think. She is way more popular and respected by many more people than any of us and has accomplished more in her shorter lifetime than all of us combined. Unlike you it doesn't bother me and I don't feel the need to insult a woman to feel better about my decisions. And she did all this without all the benefits of a Harvard JD. Small wonder....... And by the way, I seem to recall pictures of her next to game animals she shot in Alaska. Not sure you could produce any photos of Hound doing anything more than shooting pigeons with a slingshot from her office window at DOD.
I really feel compassion for the two of you being forced to leave the Beltway and surround yourself with average Americans, most of whom voted for McCain. Must be quite a burden. And after the last mean spirited rant I am back to wondering what is in your water.
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Good news.....can't find the oil in the Gulf
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Date:
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7/28/2010 10:34:15 PM
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Man, did that train ever take a detour and derail. I thought we were talking about no "oil in the Gulf"
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
I'll take my crap over yours
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Date:
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7/28/2010 11:21:36 PM
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Good for you. OK, You win since I do not give a dang about what you think.
I will meet you whenever, and we can look each other in the eye and see who is who.
I did not come from the beltway, but I have been there and a heck of a lot of other places in my life. How about you? I kind of think I have some varied experience in life.
What are your personal qualification? I will only believe them once I have shaken your hand one on one. Only then can we compare credentials. Best Regards, Lamar
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I'll take my crap over yours
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Date:
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7/29/2010 8:07:31 PM
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If you don't care what I think then why the posts impugning my integrity or attacking someone that you have never met?
I just find all the mean spirited attacks against Sarah Palin questioning her intelligence and every other aspect to be low class drivel lacking substance or intellect. If you don't agree with her beliefs or her political views you can express that opinion in more sophisticated and civil ways. I have much more regard for her than the Messiah and I can back it up with historical facts, logic and truth. I don't need to insult his intelligence and I don't need to compare my wife's hunting abilities to his....which by the way I would guess he could not hold a candle to her.
I think you and Hound have developed a warped view of the world having lived so long in the insular world of the beltway and you are really having a hard time connecting to real Americans that love this country and don't like what the Messiah, Reid and Pelosi are doing to it. Fortunately for us most of those middle of road types or misguided alleged Republicans are realizing their mistake. It's just the two of you and the wing nuts on left that are holding onto to fantasy that your decision was right and he is remotely competent......remember, you are who you hang out with.
As Chris Mathews aptly put it when referring to the Messiah....."as Ocarter said....." A perfectly delightful Freudian slip although Obama is so bad this may actually be an insult to to worthless one Jimmy Carter....and that's saying a lot.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
I'll take my crap over yours
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Date:
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7/30/2010 12:06:47 AM
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Never intended to attack your integrity, and If you senced such then I appologize.
You should also read your post and reflect upon the attacks in it.
I have attempted to be civil with you, and it appears fraught with revenge on your part.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
No problem.......
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Date:
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7/30/2010 9:43:01 AM
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Feb, no worries and I apologize for the pointed nature of my response. But asking me if I own BP stock implies that I am saying what I am saying because I have some vested personal interest and am lying about what I believe.....that is the definition of impugning someone's character. And titling your post with the word "crap" is also going to get a response from me.
I really detest and cannot understand the personal animus toward Sarah Palin. If you don't agree with her politics or don't think she is qualified to be VP, those are all reasonable things to discuss. But the vicious personal nature of the attacks on her intelligence or her family, often by people who voted for the likes Algore (who failed out of divinity school and is completely ignorant of science) or Joe Biden (no need for qualifiers here), really disgust me. I regularly attack the Messiah for his programs, his political beliefs, his actions as President, etc. but I don't question his intelligence or comment on his family (with the exception of Michelle when she is acting as a public figure in a political way).
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
No problem.......
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Date:
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7/30/2010 11:06:47 AM
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Thank You and have a nice weekend. Lamar
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