Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 8:33:37 AM

Glenn Youngkin, like Elon Musk has figured out a way to get rid of employees pretending to work.......make them come into the office.  Apparently hundreds of VA state employees quit their jobs rather than actually be forced to show up.  No doubt many people can and have for a long time been effective working at home.  But many jobs actually require that an individual be physically present.  But more to the point, when you have a job that doesn't involve any specific metric of performance (revenue, profit, etc.) except showing up, when you can't be fired except under the most extreme circumstances and when your customer has absolutely zero influence over your career why not pretend to work from home?  Or he could have used Musk's method and tell them they can work at home as much as they want as long as they spend 40 hours per week in the office.

And given the lousy experience of trying to reach a govt employee "working" at home over the last two years I am fairly certain no one in VA will miss them.  The only thing I would add to this strategy is a concurrent hiring freeze.  Let the govt employee experience what the private sector has for decades, more work with fewer resources.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 9:45:51 AM

When I was IT/Business Officer for a law firm and an employee wanted to take work home (this was Way before it was cool) I would tell them "Count 3/4 of the time you think you are working".   There is the TV, there is the "oh I need to do this real quick", there is the phone call to make, there is the "did I move those clothes to the dryer".

There are exceptions, and some people work hours they are not paid for just because they are who they are, but for the most part Productivity takes a dive!  OMMV

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 10:11:13 AM

I think it depends on the individual but in general I think you are correct.  There are lots of ways to waste time in the office but at least there you have a greater level of accountability.  And again, many jobs simply cannot be performed remotely.  Where it probably works better is jobs where your results can be seen by your management.  For example, in the consulting world you are judged by the number of billable hours and you have goals you have to meet.  If you screw around mowing the lawn or doing laundry you have to make up for those lost billable hours.  But it's hard to be a remote bank teller or other similar jobs.  I also think there is a lot of lost benefit from collaboration.  Teams meetings are just not the same as walking down the hall and talking to someone.

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 11:00:33 AM

i had a problem with the smokers that worked for me--taking 30-45 min breaks--so i converted a broom closet with no ventilation TO 'THE SMOKING ROOM"--outlawed smoking anywhere but the 'designated' smoking room --cured that problem QUICK

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 11:12:39 AM

I've always been in favor of at least several days a week, of working from home.  The employees are required to log in, in the morning, and respond to questions/ emails/texts within a few minutes.  When I worked in Washington, I spent an hour commuting in heavy traffic, to work and an hour or so getting home.  By the time I got to work in the morning, I would be stressed and worn out, before I ever turned on my computer.  

I think it depends on the kind of employees you have.  While concerns about working vs. goofing off may apply to Lower level employees, but I believe professional level employees for the most part are interested in their work and want to see it done.  There are many metric that can be applied to ensure that people are working when they are supposed to be.  But as a manager, I really don't care if they take an hour off during the traditional workday, as long as they are meeting their metrics.  And when they don't meet their metrics, that is the time for corrective action, not before.  

This idea that you have to be standing over your employees and keep them in sight at all times to be sure they are working is an outdated idea.  Some people like working in the office, because it provides a level of socialization that they don't get at home.  I think it is easily more time wasted in the office with people BSing with their colleagues and visiting social media platforms, and taking calls from home than time wasted when people are at home.  

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 12:07:52 PM

Like I said above, it depends on the individual and the nature of their work.  One size does not fit all but I remain convinced that working from home should be the exception and not the rule, especially when you work in a job with limited ability to judge performance or where being present is necessary to do the job. For sure in my business it can work but it does involve a lot of inefficiencies.  It is simply easier to go to someone's office and explain what you want versus trying to do it by email, text, Teams or even video conferencing.  But it can work even if not optimal.  I personally believe the big backlog at the IRS in getting returns reviewed and refunds issued is remote work......but maybe it was always like that.  I just don't recall this being the case in the past as much as it is today.

But I have limited sympathy for the commute argument.  If that is an issue for the person then live closer to where you work or work closer to where you live.  But again, that is a general rule and there are always exceptions.  I will say I was always skeptical when we hired someone that would have a long, brutal commute and in almost every case I was correct.  It didn't work out. It's why most corporations, including the one that bought my company, have several office locations in large metro areas like Atlanta.  So make exceptions for employees that can demonstrate an ability to work effectively from home but for most of the rest being in an office would be my preference.  

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 12:13:04 PM

We (Defense contractors) are having problems with folks going silent for extended periods with no explanation as to what they were doing...or not.  Fired one just last week for non-productivity, the third in about six months.  Problem is that the job market is so employee-friendly, especially in cybersecurity, that the ones we fire pop up working for a similar organization, either Defense or other Federal employment within a few short weeks.  We get tired of their excuses, read them the riot act, and they might do better for a few days.  But they quickly fall back into their bad habits.  I work part-time, about 20-24 hours per week, and just do't understand why some of the full-time folks don't get any more done than they do. 

The organization we support, prtematurely in my opinion, stated during the pandemic that it would be work-from-home from this point forward.  They shut down the facilities that were their offices and retrenched to much smaller "hoteling" spaces for when meetings had to be face-to-face.  In the beginning everyone embraced the idea and productivity was good, but it has fallen off at time passes.  Indeed there are those who will be very responsible and responsive, but unfortunately the others drive us nuts because we can't count on them.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 2:20:12 PM

Interesting anecdote.....I have a good friend who is CEO of a cybersecurity contractor to the U.S. govt and he told me that work at home has been a huge headache for his company.  Very similar issues with not being able to confirm that employees are even working, silent periods, long delays in answering emails, etc.  I am sure it's not specific to that industry but ones in high demand (like environmental) are seeing bigger problems.  Employees that are pretending to work can easily find a new place to pretend to work because of the tight labor market for experienced people.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Brilliant way to reduce government spending
Date:	7/11/2022 2:24:39 PM

Maybe I should have gone with count 1/4 instead of 3/4

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/11/2022 2:39:14 PM

I can’t imagine any company or gubment manager being stupid enough to think they can get any productivity from office bound employees that are allowed to work from home, without some way of monitoring “work”.  Some income incentive is a must, period.  I spent whole career “working from home”.  The incentive was simple…..keep your butt in front of customers all the time, or you don’t eat.  We hired only known, proven representatives that could be productive in a 100% commission job.  Yes, a bad hire was made on occasion, but we could always tell quickly whether the hire was good, or not.  Today, I hate to call a company or gubment and get an answer on the phone, with kids and babies crying in the background….it’s a waste of time.  INCENTIVIZE !!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	As I said - plus Hodja, a Question
Date:	7/11/2022 4:13:01 PM

The time for corrective action is when they are not meeting their metric - either in response time, or getting their work done on time.

In an organization of 250, I can think of only 10 employees I would have had a problem with, should we have been able to let them work from home.  In my mind, if they prove to be unreliable, that is the time for corrective action and you have to take it, as a warning to others.  I think too often you have weak managers who don't take timely action.  

Now, when I worked "out in the field" in NJ at a major command, it was completely different.  Back then it was terribly difficult to take corrective action against anyone, much less fire them.  I am led to believe that disciplinary and corrective action is easier to do these days, because managers got fed up with the system.  Now, I have never worked for another Department other than Defense, so it may be completely different there.  I know when I worked with State, they were in a different environment.  

I can imagine that in the current labor market, in a lot of fields, employees have their pick of where they want to work and they dictate the terms of their employment.  In that, I am really glad I am retired.  When I first went to work for the government, there was no flex time, no working from home, and you were under stronger management control.  I think if some of the younger people that complain now had to work under those conditions, they would have a heart attack.  LOL

What is the ratio of contractors to govenrment employees in your organization?  When I left, there were so many contractors working in the offices, right next to the government people, it was hard to discern who was who.  

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/11/2022 4:53:35 PM

Keeping your participation in the bi-weekly paycheck club used to be incentive enough but not so much anymore.  Obviously not every job, in fact most jobs, would not work on a commission basis.  Works great with sales but not so much with most others.  As I said, it can work with jobs that are easy to judge performance like consulting.  Not so much for jobs where all you are doing is answering the phone or filling out forms or whatever.  The primary reason I liked consulting was I was the master of my own universe.  If I stayed billable and had clients I not only had job security but also was sought after by the competition so my compensation had to keep up.  Most jobs are not like that at all and there is no easy way to judge performance, let alone tie that performance to some incentive-based compensation system.  Those are the kind of jobs that need to be closely supervised and working from home is the antithesis of that......

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	As I said - plus Hodja, a Question
Date:	7/11/2022 10:44:48 PM

The contractor to Govie ratio is different depending on the office but we are the Program Executive Office cyber staff consisting of eight contractors and one Govie.  I think the overall ratio is probably about five to one.  Overall the contractors make more than their Government leaders and you find very few willing to take a Government position even if begged to do so because of the $$ and the nickel-chit harrassment Govies get that contractors don't.  I toyed with the idea about three or four years ago but quickly discounted it for those two very reasons, more the bureaucratic BS than the shekels.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/11/2022 11:16:55 PM

I understand the difficulty of incentivizing some jobs, and the lower skilled (less paid) jobs would really need to be closely supervised (eyeball contact), but there are incentives than $$.  Work Contests with prizes for best performance, etc.  Sales reps have contests all the time…..trips, prizes, vacations…..all kinds of things to increase productivity.  

It appears workers were just sent home to work during Covid, and managers just failed to do any creative thinking and managing.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/12/2022 7:54:00 AM

the problem is that in the government, there is no money for prizes and contests, unless the manager buys the prize material out of pocket.  the incentives that are available - a $250 "on the spot" award (which is taxed and tends to net $175), a performance award at the end of the year rating period.  For people earning in excess of $100K a year, it's not much motivation.  

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/12/2022 9:37:27 AM

Aware of the gubment’s need to show “equality” probably would prevent individual recognition, but something as simple as email “at-a-boy” incentivizes most people…..oops, boy makes that a racial and sexual violation in gubment world.  GEEZ!!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/12/2022 11:10:58 AM

It works well for the younger employees, but not so much on the senior employees. Even giving medals (which is a no cost way of rewarding someone), is not especially highly regarded.  Somewhere along the line, some political appointee thought it would be great if civilians got medals since the military gets medals - forgetting, of course, that for the military, it counts towards promotios, whereas civilians it does not.  I had a drawer full of them that I tossed when I retired.  

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/12/2022 2:49:48 PM

No offense intended, but I tend to look at gubment employees like I looked at some of my college professors….they’re doing that job because they failed in the civilian business world, and gubment is a safe fall back place.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	No incentive, no work…..
Date:	7/12/2022 5:10:02 PM

That wasn't the case for me.  I was looking for a way to serve and since I didn't want to go in the military, I chose civil service.  I had job offers in the private sector over the years, but I really was interested in what I was doing.  I worked in international - foreign military sales and later in keeping defense contractors from giving away the farm in technology.  The last couple of years I was the Deputy Director of a small government agency that had a lot of different missions leading into keeping our defense technology safe. But I am a person who is self motivated.  I've seen some bad things and I have heard about other bad things that really flew in the face of my commitment to servinga.  My sister had a racial minority file a law suit against her and others because he was too stupid to learn the job and did his best to stay out of the office as much as possible.  They were taking corrective action against him.